Giving to God

[Martin Guthe]

I heard a sermon today about people not giving enough to God. Of course, giving to God means giving to the Church. Much, if not most of the money goes to Church expenses and the building fund etc..

I believe giving to the Church isn't giving to God. It is giving to the Church.
Giving to God, to me, is helping other people and donating to other non-profits that help people. In our world today, Church is a building with some of the people in it fellow believers. That is why home church is catching on. What would happen if the few people who tithe the proper amount helped other people out with the money instead?

This preacher today even had the audacity to say we should give a tithe based on our gross pay and not what we bring home. That is, we should tithe for the government as well. As taxes go up, we would have even less money after tithing.

What ever happened to earning a living doing something else and preaching the gospel for free. We are more blessed to give than receive. It shouldn't happen only one day a week anyway. Thank God we can listen to sermons on the radio and on the internet. We can read books and THE BOOK whenever we want. We do live in the best of times and it seems people are more messed up than ever before.

Now are the Bible Thought Police coming after me or years from now will this show up to haunt me?

[Patti Palmer]

I agree!

If all the expense of buildings and programs and the like were used to minister to others as Christ modeled, well that would take care of the Body and those that are in need.

[Paula]

I had always been taught to tithe on the gross! I have believed I had to tithe when doing so put undo financial hardship on me and left me with unpaid bills because we had to eat and have gas.

I believe that we are to give generously to help those that need help. I tend to shy away from "Christian" sites where you have to purchase every little teaching. That, to me, is wrong. You should freely share what God has blessed you with - not try to earn a living with it. I understand that books, CDs, and other publications have a cost involved, but when you can put a brief teaching to a pdf file and it costs virtually nothing, it is just wrong to charge people for it.

Wayne has a good response to tithing here:

[Martin Guthe]

We are teaching each other and don't charge anything. We share God's love without putting a gilt trip on each other to believe or do what we want each of us to do or believe. What makes people feel they should make a living as a minister or priest? After they decide, they go to school and learn what to believe and what to teach. Then they get hired by an organization or start their business on their own. I think that misses the point completely.

[Paula]

Couldn't agree more!

Martin Guthe said:

We are teaching each other and don't charge anything. We share God's love without putting a gilt trip on each other to believe or do what we want each of us to do or believe. What makes people feel they should make a living as a minister or priest? After they decide, they go to school and learn what to believe and what to teach. Then they get hired by an organization or start their business on their own. I think that misses the point completely.

[Keren]

WARNING AND NAMASTE...A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW HERE: I understand what everyone is saying here but I guess I have a little different take on this subject. .... First of all, to me it seems there is no New Testament directive to tithe anything. That is an OT imperative just like circumcism. Whatever you give to persons in need or to the church should come from your own heart and personal circumstances.

However, I like giving to the church (what little I do, I would love to give more), because I get so much out of it, and my church (RC) does a lot for the poor directly and indirectly. The ones I go to are open 7 days a week from early in the morning to late at night. They have free spiritual programs of all sorts, many ways for all ages to meet new people and make new friends, tons of ministries of all sorts available to join serve the poor and each other (so many I can’t decide between them), libraries, places to exercise even, places to sit and talk with friends, Mass everyday which is like a mini bible study if you go every day of the week. Catholic churches are good to old and lonely and poor people, etc, etc. (Sorry for this ad, you all know I love my church, as well as understand the shedder point of view from my own upbringing).

Personally I thank God every day for the men who were and are courageous enough to join the priesthood....the ones I have had access to and have read of have taught me so much and greatly deepend my understanding of my self and my personal relationship with Jesus. As I am sure have the many men and women in other denominations/religions who become wonderful life-giving leaders in their churches.

It is not an easy job. We need leaders! We need shepherds! IMHO

I have no problem with people making money from spiritual gifts - why not? Look at Billy Graham, thank God for him. Correct me if I am wrong but he paid himself about $100k annually from his ministry when he was really active. Has a nice house and car. His books always open for anyone to review.

Look at the parable of the talents. I believe we are supposed to use our gifts, and if we get paid for it, it only offers us more ways to give back to God.

If someone were to give me money for my spiritual thoughts I would let them. :o) !!!!
I would also hope that I would turn around and share it with others less fortunate.

Peace K

[Paula]

Keren, you are blessed and fortunate to have found the church that you have. If I had such a church to support then I probably would too, but I would give out of my heart and my ability and not a strict 10% - that's just another law. We agree on that.

What I'm talking about here is the bulk of the institutional church and the imperative set down from the pulpit that you MUST tithe 10%, and by the way, folks, then on top of that you MUST give an offering! I'm a giver as well, but I like to give from my heart. I like to give to what I want to and where I think it will do the most good. I don't like giving to any institution where I think too much of the money is going to overhead. Yes, we all have to earn a living and yes, the people managing such things need to be able to live, but I don't think that I would give anywhere that those receiving are living 'high on the hog' while those who were intended to be the recipients are living in poverty.

Billy Graham making $100K a year is nothing compared to what his ministry probably brought in. I don't begrudge him that. If he didn't give freely out of what he brought in (and by the way I have no idea if he did or not, but I would think so if $100K is all he kept for himself) then that wouldn't be cool IMO, but also not my business OR my place to judge. There is nothing wrong with having money and there is nothing wrong with making money from our gifts - don't many of us? BUT there is a problem with burdening those that are poor or barely making ends meet by making them feel that they MUST give and that they can't freely have access to teachings and such if they don't have any money (and I'm talking about purchasing materials here). If I had a gift that brought in money like that I would make it clear that if someone was unable to purchase my materials then I would let them have a copy. OR I would let people purchase according to their ability to pay. If it was something that God blessed then certainly I would at least break even and I'm sure earn enough to pay my way.

We probably disagree a little bit on the needing shepherds. I see your point. I guess where we differ is that I see the role of the body of Christ, the ekklesia, to be that of what we typically perceive that shepherds should fill. I think Jesus is our head and we, as the body, are the human connection that gets each other through. Again, your experience with your church is different than probably most of us here.

I tend to believe that if all the money that was poured into church buildings that remain empty 95% of the time was given to the poor and given to help educate people to make their lives better then this would be a much better place and there would be a lot fewer messed up and more spiritually fulfilled people in this world.

[Ginny Pamplin]

As a former religious tither, I do know God honors such sacrifices. That said, this scripture was a real eye opener for me, and one you don't hear preached in the IC:Dueteronomy 14:22 says"Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice." doesn't sound like tithing the way I was taught!

[Paula]

Wow, Ginny!! I've never heard it that way either!

[Keren]

Paula, I agree with your statement below. I almost cant imagine calling a place a church that was only open one day a week. Perhaps Jewish temples in the OT time were more places of community not just a place you went on the Sabbath.

When a place is part of your community you naturally want to support it. I have indeed been blessed by all of my "religioius experiences" since I joined the church - pure grace.

With regard to shepherds, many people dont need them at all, many people desperately do and many more are somewhere in between. :o)

More later..
Love Keren


Paula said:

I tend to believe that if all the money that was poured into church buildings that remain empty 95% of the time was given to the poor and given to help educate people to make their lives better then this would be a much better place and there would be a lot fewer messed up and more spiritually fulfilled people in this world.

[Stephen]

This is an interesting discussion. I was always taught that one was supposed to give to the local church through tithing (citing Malachi 3:10) and that this was the primary means of giving; But I tend to disagree with this also. I think that many churches are doing good things with their tithes, but I think too often the church becomes an entity on to itself that must be served and that leaves many hutring people by the wayside....

[Martin Guthe]

All churches probably do a tremendous amount of good. It's just when the church is worried about it's survival and the goal becomes growth in number of people and money collected, that there is a problem. "What can we do to bring more people to our church: change our service, get better musicians, build a better building, provide a more interesting Sunday school for the children, provide more opportunity for people to help?" That is why I ask if giving to a church is giving to God. The money can do more when you give it directly to people in need. You can share your love of Jesus too, God willing.

[Old Pete]

Ginny Pamplin said:

As a former religious tither, I do know God honors such sacrifices. That said, this scripture was a real eye opener for me, and one you don't hear preached in the IC:Dueteronomy 14:22 says"Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice." doesn't sound like tithing the way I was taught!

It was a bit of a shock reading that because years ago that is what I knew as second tithe. I had to use a concordance to find tithing to the Levites (Numbers 18.21 on) which I believe is the basis of tithing to the church (its much more complicated than that I know). For many years we did keep the second tithe religiously (as above) by attending the "Feast of Tabernacles" and I would have to say that God honoured that in some incredible ways. In 1986 for example we had many American visitors in our home town. Because we knew the area we invited a couple of Americans out for what turned out to be a very enjoyable day. In 1987 our 'second tithe' was enough to get us to the US and not much more - they invited us over and we spent 27 nights in the States without paying a single hotel bill.

Martin's post was just another reminder of the incredible journey I have been on - so many lessons of how not to do things - the faulty reasoning of men - and the love of God that shines through - despite the mess that we make of an amazing creation.

Years later we came to understand that tithing was part of the legal system of Israel that was replaced by the New Covenant based on loving relationships.

I really do appreciate the freedom and liberation from the slavery of legalism (that included tithing)!!!!